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11 June 2008 @ 01:05 pm
4E Eberron - Basics  
Well, my last post certainly raised lots of questions. reviewing the sixty-odd messages, the following questions seem to come up a lot:

1. How do the eladrin, tieflings, and dragonborn fit into the world?
2. What about the traditional Eberron races? What's the deal with changelings and doppelgangers?
3. What about gnomes and half-orcs?
4. What's going on with the planes?
5. Artificers! Dragonmarks!
6. How is the world changing?


Having talked with the folks at WotC, there's limits on how much they want me to say until we've actually completed work on the 4E ECS, and there's a lot of good reasons for that. The fact of the matter is that nothing is 100% certain, and things could change. So don't expect a long LJ post on the theory behind planar cosmology in 4E Eberron. However, what I can certainly say is watch DDI. This month has the fully expanded warforged, along with a piece of mine on Mordain the Fleshweaver. Next month you'll see a basic version of the artificer. There's limits on what I can say, because it's NOT official, and it gets confusing if I give out one piece of information and gets contradicted later; but what shows up in DDI is a preview of the world to come.

With that in mind...

The thing I really want to know is to what extent Eberron will be shifting to fit the changes 4th edition has brought to key elements of the world, and whether the intent will be for those changes to be retroactive, or actual historical shifts in the eberron timeline.

While I can say nothing with absolutely certainty, I believe that the goal of the design team is to minimize the impact to the world - to have changes expand the world rather than transform it. The fact that gnomes aren't in the PHB and tieflings are doesn't mean that tieflings suddenly have a dragonmarked house and Zilargo, and that gnomes have vanished from Eberron. Dragonborn, tieflings, and eladrin all have roles to play in Eberron, but these don't come at the expense of what has come before; on the contrary, eladrin use the same role that's been mentioned for them in the past in 3.5 Eberron, and we're just building upon it. There may be changes here and there, but by and large the flavor text of the 3.5 Eberron books you own will remain accurate, and for now I would base your 4E Eberron campaign on that foundation. The next time I post I'll talk a little more about simple, basic requirements for running a 4E game in Eberron, looking to races, Dragonmarked Houses, and such. There's limits on what I can say, but I can give a few tips.

Before that, however, I do want to point to a few of the things that I think work especially well in Eberron. Dr. Tectonic mentioned the Investigate feat in the 3.5 ECS. The Skill Challenge system of 4E is a perfect way to handle an inquisitive campaign. Searching a room? Perception and Insight may be base skills, but Streetwise can help you get info from the locals, Heal may make some sense of the patterns of blood you discover, and History may bring up stories of similar murders. There's a lot of ways to use Skill Challenges - interrogation, chase scenes, even a wrestling match in the Red Ring - and I love working with them.

Rituals are something else that works well with the basic themse of Eberron. Rituals are an excellent match to the intended role of the magewright - a mystical professional filling a specific niche in society. While the final form of the magewright is still under development, a simple way to address it in the interim is to say that a magewright learns to perform one or two rituals without the need for a ritual book (though still using the same time, skill, and components). So the professional arcane locksmith is just that, and you can't beat him up and take his ritual book; he's learned how to perform a specific ritual. Where does he learn to perform his ritual? More likely from a dragonmarked house, in exchange for service in the house guild. So Jorasco enclaves aren't filled with clerics, but they do have healers trained to perform cure disease and remove affliction, and most healers are tied to Jorasco because they have the best teachers. Here again, the mechanics have changed, but the idea remains the same: magewrights provide specific magical services to the public.

I'd also like to take a moment here to talk about Jorasco healers. A key thing to remember is that the 4E system is not intended to be a photorealistic world simulation; much of the flavor is geared towards swashbuckling action, and to simplifying book-keeping. A key feature of this is that PCs heal fully after an extended rest. This doesn't mean that NO ONE IN THE WORLD EVER GETS SERIOUSLY HURT. People can still break bones, suffer internal trauma, etc - and these things will require extended treatment at a Jorasco house. It's just that PCs don't tend to suffer this sort of affliction. So the PC will probably show up to get a disease removed or curse lifted - but Jorasco does good business on more mundane injuries.

Anyhow, next time I will get down to a few of the more practical questions. Again, however, for now my best advice is to trust the flavor of the 3.5 books and watch DDI for new material.
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( 15 comments — Post a new comment )
Blue Milker[info]bluemilker on June 11th, 2008 08:22 pm (UTC)
I'm really glad to hear this stuff, Keith. Thanks again for throwing the gates open to us all, and for being willing to deal with our torrents of questions.

(And yay, I got quoted!)

Now get back to getting that book written. ;)
Rechan[info]rechan on June 11th, 2008 09:05 pm (UTC)
The planes shouldn't be tricky. It seems like various planes have "pieces" of the 4e Cosmology: Thelanis and Lamannia get the Feywild, the elemental-based planes get the Elemental Chaos stuff, and so on.
Dave the Brave[info]davethebrave on June 12th, 2008 01:38 pm (UTC)
The conversion notes for Keep on the Shadowfell mention that the Shadowfell encompasses Dolurrh and Mabar, but that not Dolurrh, but Mabar specifically was becoming coterminus as the adventure begins. That indicates to me that Shadowfell is more of a grouping and not an actual plane. Of course, nothing is definite, but the way I'm running it for now is that the only difference between 3.5 and 4e is that the planes aren't all in isolation besides their connections to the Material. Some of them have connections to each other, like Dolurrh and Mabar. Now whether that connection means that they both connect to Eberron through the Shadowfell (like all the planes used to through the Astral Plane) whereas Thelanis and Lamannia connect through the Feywild, I don't know, especially since some of them don't seem to fit in any particular grouping (Daanvi and Kythri, in particular, spring to mind, especially with chaos as an alignment concept gone), and Xoriat would be drastically changed if you let it be the far realms clone that 4e has. I mean, we'll have to wait and see, but I think I'd prefer "the Shadowfell" to mean "that's what we refer to those two as, and they happen to connect together which is odd because most planes don't", same for the Feywild, etc, etc.
gothamgm[info]gothamgm on June 12th, 2008 02:36 pm (UTC)
The Shadowfell conversion disappointed me, I'd much rather see the Eberron cosmology (which is one of it's key identifying features) remain as originally conceived. If the conversion model is used, Mabar and Dolurrh become unimportant to the player, the Shadowfell is what he needs to know about and what he'll remember. In short, I would prefer to have seen the Shadowfell, the Feywild and the new planes be subsumed by the original Ebrreron setting components rather than the other way 'round.
Dave the Brave[info]davethebrave on June 12th, 2008 03:25 pm (UTC)
While I definitely agree with you there, it's unlikely to be that way just due to the fact that so many future sourcebooks for each of the power sources, magic item books, and subsequent PHs will have stuff dependant on core cosmology. I think the best option would be to let Eberron DMs think for themselves whether power x best fits in Dolurrh or Mabar, instead of shoe-horning both into the Shadowfell (or vice versa). But it seems like that is unlikely given WotC's developments with FR. The article might not indicate things to come, as the 4ECS is still in discussion stages on a lot of things, but it's probably a rough indicator of where WotC wants to go with that.
its_hoopy: Friend Bringer[info]its_hoopy on June 12th, 2008 01:28 am (UTC)
eople can still break bones, suffer internal trauma, etc - and these things will require extended treatment at a Jorasco house. It's just that PCs don't tend to suffer this sort of affliction. So the PC will probably show up to get a disease removed or curse lifted - but Jorasco does good business on more mundane injuries.

I agree that dnd is not a photorealistic world simulation. I like the direction healing surges are going and i was with you all the way until I saw this.

With all the hazardous environments and epic battles the PCs get into I would imagine that breaking a bone is a real possibility. Now in 3.x the cure spells and other magic mended bones and the like. In 4E I would doubt that a healing surge or Healing Word would fix a broken bone. I concede the fact that there are no rules for called shots or sundering in combat and it is up to the DM to sale when a PC has a broken bone.

Ultimately I think that it is more likely that a PC will break a bone in 4E than in 3.x and your statement confused me.
Arcane Geek: WTF?[info]nviiibrown on June 12th, 2008 01:56 am (UTC)
If it's up to the DM, how does the edition affect this?
Keith Baker[info]gloomforge on June 12th, 2008 02:12 am (UTC)
Ultimately I think that it is more likely that a PC will break a bone in 4E than in 3.x and your statement confused me.

This is a side issue to the basic point - 4E and Eberron - so I don't want to spend too much time on it. But let me clarify my point.

In 3E, in absence of magic, it takes a long time to recover hit points. Per page 146 of the 3.5 PHB, 8 hours of sleep allows you to recover one hit point per character level. Full bed rest doubles this. And long-term care from a trained healer can double it again. So there is a clear reason for an injured person to go to a Jorasco healing house; with proper treatment, he can get back 4 hp/level per day.

In 4E, in absence of magic, a PC recovers all of his hit points with an extended rest. Heal is used to treat disease, but this is the closest equivalent to "long-term care". Unless you create rules for it, a PC will never NEED to go to a Jorasco house for extended care - unless he has a disease.

With that said, it's actually trivial to CREATE something like a broken bone in 4E by treating it like a disease; I've done just that, in an adventure involving a shipwreck where a number of NPCs were comatose and required long-term care. It would be something like this:

Broken Arm
Level 12 disease
Special: Cannot be cured by the Cure Disease ritual
Endurance improve DC 28, Maintain DC 18
1. The victim is cured.
2. Initial Effect The target can make no use of the injured arm. This will prevent the use of a two-handed weapon or both weapon and shield. The character suffers a -1 penalty on Acrobatics, Athletics, and Thievery checks.
3. The infected break becomes painful. Increase the skill penalty to -2. The victim cannot use the arm.
4. Gangrene begins to set in. The victim cannot use the arm; increase the skill penalty to -4. The victim loses one healing surge that cannot be regained until he is cured; each subsequent failure causes an additional loss. If the victim begins the day with no healing surges, he dies.

Now, I'm not going to defend this particular example. I'm literally making this up off the top of my head, and I've got better things to do than to debate the DC of a break (and I'm no doctor - though I did once get invited to join a heart practice). The idea behind the high Improve number but low Maintain is to create a condition that takes some time to heal (especially without treatment) but that isn't likely to get worse. Another option would be to set the Impove DC even higher, but have it drop by one with each failed Endurance check - so the PC WILL eventually save, but it takes time.

In any case, yes, you could create broken bones in 4E. The disease system is actually a handy way to do it. But the point is that the mechanics of 3E provide PCs with a clear use for a house of healing: long-term care to regain hit points. The rules of 4E remove this with the full recovery of hit points after a single rest. My point is that this should not be saying that everyone in the world recovers from all harm after a good night's sleep, and there's good business in healing.
its_hoopy: Friend Bringer[info]its_hoopy on June 12th, 2008 03:47 am (UTC)
I was not trying to say that I disagreed with you on long tern care and house Jorasco, I just did not fully understand it.

I have toyed with giving my players broken bones but in 3.x it was easy to get around. I love the idea of treating them as diseases, thank you very much.

I am beginning to fully appreciate what you said about 4e fully capturing what Eberron is all about.
(Anonymous) on June 12th, 2008 09:18 am (UTC)
I'm gonna use this too. Great off the top of your head design keith!

Now i gotta write up dissentary...
(Anonymous) on June 12th, 2008 02:25 pm (UTC)
Actually, that's a great off-the-top-of-the-head idea. I think I'm totally stealing it. I might let a mend ritual fix the bones though. And I might move the gangrene to its own disease track (one that a Cure Disease ritual could actually work on).

The disease rules in 4e seem to be quite solid - one of the best implementations of that particular hazard that I think I've ever seen in an RPG, actually. And the mechanic seems to be expandable to other things (I'd already thought about slow-acting poisons - I hadn't thought about broken bones). I think they're going to be enough of a justification for House Jorasco to exist all by themselves in the setting without worrying about healing surges or other "hit point" recovery mechanics.
Keith Baker[info]gloomforge on June 12th, 2008 04:36 pm (UTC)
And I might move the gangrene to its own disease track (one that a Cure Disease ritual could actually work on).

Certainly - You could easily say that a consequence of stage four is that you get gangrene, which is treated as a separate disease - and that the worst thing that happens from the arm alone is the increased skill penalty.

On reflection, I would probably increase the "improve" DC at first but then make a consqeuence of stage 2 "Every day you begin at this level, lower the Improve DC by 1". It should be pretty ridiculously hard to shake off a break in a single day without magic (or an epic healer/Endurance), but time will eventually resolve it.
(Anonymous) on November 26th, 2008 01:09 am (UTC)
If you don't want it likely to get worse, why not start the person at the "Final State" and have them work up from there with a relatively high DC to improve, but no minimum DC to maintain.

That way the person will have the disease for a minimum amount of time (about 3 days makes sense to me if you have a high enough Endurance to beat 3 high DC checks).
blue_23[info]blue_23 on June 13th, 2008 12:09 pm (UTC)
More on Jorasco healing - in order to bring healingback to PCs for short term care, would it make sense to create a HP healing without using a surge ritual?

"Okay, we escaped, but we're going to need to go back in to rescue the rest of them before they move them tonight..."

From a balance perspective even if PCs learn it, spending time and resources to save a surge or two probably isn't game breaking. Especially since as a ritual it can never be a combat thing.

Another healing ritual might be to regain surges without an extended rest. Which all it does it let the PCs continue to romp with less chance to get back dailies.

(Anonymous) on June 20th, 2008 01:16 am (UTC)
thanks
I was very worried about Eberron shift to 4ed, but you confirmed my opinion on you: you rock Keith!
 
 

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